Poll: Is CA

[Saktoth]

With no tech progression, automatic overdrive, the only differences between e being hp, efficiency and weight, there are few variables in economic decisions.

Does 'reduce economic micro' really mean reduce meaningful economic decisions? We should always reduce meaningless busywork, like toggling metalmakers on and off, but do we need more meaningful choices in our economy?

(From my perspective, this is really more of a question for 1faction).

[licho]

I dont think it needs more..

But if you still want it, i suggest focusing on metal extractors.

There are 2 things you could do:

1) randomized/non map mex layouts. These can really help. If you leave mexes out of middle of map, it will reduce slippery slope and might make game more interesting with more empty land buffer zone.

2) go back to upgradable metal extractors. It can be several levels with different outputs. If the upgrade is big, expensive and easy to kill you add some (though not huge) choice - upgrade or not. But you also add significant micro (most games will degrade to upgrade all one by one starting from base)

[CarRepairer]

Replying to licho:

2) go back to upgradable metal extractors. It can be several levels with different outputs. If the upgrade is big, expensive and easy to kill you add some (though not huge) choice - upgrade or not. But you also add significant micro (most games will degrade to upgrade all one by one starting from base)

The micro wouldn't be so bad so long as it uses morphing. It would actually be less micro than building the level 1 mex in the first place.

[licho]

It is more micro! It was more micro! We had it before. Its far worse than BA with automex upgrade. You have to click each and then click morph. You cannot even queue it like you can queue mex construction.

[jk]

Quantum once had the idea of an C&C/SimCity like electricity cable system, so you have to build power cables to support your static defense at the front.

[licho]

that could be interesting problem is CA is very territorial already so this would work only if we concetrate resources more (upgradable mex or generated mex spots instead of map based)

[Saktoth]

An energy grid isnt a terrible idea, but it should only be for the energy itself, not to supply energy to the frontline.

Say, energy storages give a bonus to e production in an area around them (non-stacking), but it emp's all the sorrounding e in that area when it dies, giving the enemy a target to hit to temporarily knock out your e, if you risk this for the extra efficiency.

Though this may be far too complicated, when just breaking 1-1-1 a bit more in regards to e structures would give more meaningful impact between the choices (IE, you have to make a lot of winds before you make fusions, because fusions are e-hungry to build).

[licho]

Just bonus for E production? Where is the choice and tactical options added then? Its boring.

Also decoupling E is useless. E is not an independent resource. Its resource tied to others that decreases in relative value over time. So more E intensive units will just be built later.

Is that so interesting? Where is the choice?

[Saktoth]

You can snipe it to knock out all the e in the area. Thats the point. And chosing how close to cluster your energy around the structure, whether to use it and risk the EMP, or not. Also the efficiency, if it gives a +%, or flat bonus, (say, +0.2 per structure) its the point at which you build the structure vs how many e structures you have.

Solars not costing e is a huge deal, it doesnt mean they 'arent built later', they are built when stalling, or when you have lots of metal. Fusions, yes, they are built later: but it means you need to build up an energy reserve of lesser buildings first (It also means we get giant wind/solar farms back- i miss them, too much fusions). This kind of progression of the economy and investment to get further returns later down the track is part of whats missing.

[Google Frog]

Breaking 1-1-1 is the last thing we should do. I don't see how knowing which things to make in certain economic situations adds choice. 0 energy solars softens the blow of poor economic planning. A progression from winds to fusions removes choice.

I think overdrive works fine as is. It captures the basis of economic investment (pay now for more later) smoothly and with very little micro.

As for wind/solar farms I would make Fusions with 30 income instead of 35. They are so much easier to defend that they don't need a massive efficiency bonus.

The energy node idea is interesting. It would only really effect solar farms though as winds and fusions are very easy to destroy already. The idea of temporarily shutting down power is nice but in CA many turrets don't drain power and can be shut down locally with EMP. I don't see enough of a problem to justify adding more economic elements.

I like power lines too but I doubt they would add anything to CA. Units are too good against turrets for the construction of expensive power lines. Cheap lines will be spammed, impossible to cut the power off. In general maps that CA works on are too small for power lines to be exposed to flanking. Territory is too uniformly important for players to run lengths of power lines anywhere. I think they would either break CA or end up purely as micro. (I would like to create a power line game based heavily on logistics.)

[licho]

I think that powerlines are also too much work for little benefit. Unless we do radical changes. Quantum once wanted to increase e cost of all weapons - by a lot.

I would instead like to introduce moho mines - in 1000-2000 range with 2-4x extraction rate. And simultaneously flatten overdrive equation. This would decrease importance of territory a bit and add extra eco choice.

[Google Frog]

Moho mines may just make understanding overdrive harder. To manage economy well players will have to know when to make energy and when to make moho. If you want to make territory less important simply make the overdrive equation more linear.

[licho]

Just tweaking OD wont add extra eco options or targets.

[luckywaldo7]

There is a delicate balance between non 1:1:1 economy, metal makers, and moho economy. You can't really take one part and leave the rest.

Instead of trying to mesh part of the old economy with the new, it might be worthwhile to brainstorm an entirely revamped economy, with new or different resources, or maybe the more popular gatherer-based (although personally I prefer the continuous flow, its just an idea of where it could go)

[luckywaldo7]

About the power-lines/energy-grid, it sounds kind of like s44's logistics system. Currently supply dumps give a radius where there is a fire bonus, but Nemo has a system envisioned where to get the full bonus, there needed to be a chain of supply all the way back to your base. However, you could get partial bonus just by having supply on the front lines, and the bonus would increase the more area in between was covered by supply until the full bonus given by continual supply.

Mmm, I'm not sure I explained it too well, but basically it would be like the powerlines except you would not be required to have all the lines connected, less breakages just meant more bonus. It would be easier to micro because a break in the line would not mean instant power outage, just a drop.

[licho]

How about mexes that become better over time? it could be flat non-OD bonus.

[licho]

Or it could be limited effect like 15 minutes to get to 2x extraction ratio

[Google Frog]

How about mexes that become better over time? it could be flat non-OD bonus.

I think this is worth considering. It would promote securing territory to give mexes enough time to become powerful and raiding would be more worthwhile. Currently it's cheaper to rebuild outlying territory rather than defend it.

Or it could be limited effect like 15 minutes to get to 2x extraction ratio

I like this simplification of the previous idea. It does not change balance for the first 15( or however long) minutes of the game and is much more visible to players. 2x is a simple bonus and upgraded mexes should have a graphical change.

[SirMaverick]

Quantum once had the idea of an C&C/SimCity like electricity cable system, so you have to build power cables to support your static defense at the front.

I like such an idea. You would add an infrastructure as a additional target. But it will be hard to make it not too micro intensive.

Instead of trying to mesh part of the old economy with the new, it might be worthwhile to brainstorm an entirely revamped economy, with new or different resources, or maybe the more popular gatherer-based

Ack. If you want to change eco in a bigger way replacing it with a different one might be a better option.

[Saktoth]

Yeah, this is all too grand and sweeping: Think smaller.

A moho mine (in addition to overdrive) might be worth considering, but since its so much more effecient, all your overdrive will be pumped into it. This may really downplay territorial importance.

[licho]

It all depends how overdrive equation works. Since its diminishing it wont pump all e to moho. If moho gets 2x more metal it will pump 4x energy to it compared to normal mex.

It will also mean its only effective to invest to moho if your overdrive is high and decreases efficiency.

It could be moho mine cost 1000 makes 2x more metal. (And has more hp).

[KingRaptor]

Winner: No (60%)

[Saktoth]

Google votes no, then impliments pylons. Irony.