Poll: Limit boost to factory construction and start with 500 boost, 500 m and 500 e

[Google Frog]

My biggest reason for this is that in teamgames it is often better to make less factories than there are player, 2 players should make 1 factory. No factory = not fun. This means there is a big difference between playing to win and having fun which is probably the biggest problem a game can have.

I know it will slow the start slightly but with only factory boosting we can make factories build nearly instantly. I also know that it will affect a few extreme 1v1 strategies but idk if they'll be possible or not.

This may look much like fac-in-a-box but it has 1 major difference. Fac-in-a-box does not force you to make factories within your base.

[SirMaverick]

No factory = not fun.

I am having much fun playing such games.

Fac-in-a-box does not force you to make factories within your base.

Neither does limit boost.

[Saktoth]

Factory start first will be mandatory. I want some walking room. Imo 700 boost, only on economic structures (excluding nano, so you cant spam nanos to assist?) 300m/e. Thats enough to go a few mexes/winds before factory, or even to do a long start. A side effect is it seriously damages nano start and fusion start (is that good?).

Id also just like to say that 'A big difference between playing to win and having fun is probably the biggest problem a game can have.' is the wisest piece of game design advice i have ever heard.

[Google Frog]

Factory start is sort of mandatory already. Even the majority of 1v1 starts make a factory right at the start or near enough to not matter.

The problem with spending only on economic structures is that it forces at least 200 to be spent on economy. The start strategy triangle of raid/defence/econ suddenly has a weighting of 200 to econ. Now of course there's the weighting of building a factory but it doesn't have to be used for raid, the remaining 500m could be used for econ.

Also spending on econ means that with a 2 player start 1 can make a factory and then there's 900 left over boost that could be used on fusion rush for super overdrive. There isn't really any way to force people to make a factory at the start unless it is given to them for free with no chance of easily spending it on something else.

Fac-in-a-box does not force you to make factories within your base.

Neither does limit boost.

Well it doesn't force you. There is a little walk room but then again there's nothing forcing you to win. The difference is that fac-in-a-box can be sent across the map while the comm makes a base somewhere else.

[Saktoth]

Oooooooooooooooooooooooor we could halve bt on factories.........

Which is what we're doing.

Though what you propose seems more of a forced fac-in-a-box-that-comes-with-com. You know, i like some of the cheesier, more inventive strategies. I really hate locking players into a build order that requires an early factory this way, it is so artificial. But then again, on the other end, some of the cheeses are really lame and way too effective.

Id like to speed up the start in general though, the placing of mexes, solars etc incl.

[Google Frog]

Yes cheese can be good but in teamgames there's too much cheese. Cheese is the only viable strat, it's just people like having fun too much to do it.

An alternative is we have 2 seperate boosts. 500 boost that is factory only and 500 that is anything but fac. This way we force people to start with 1 factory each but it is also a fast start.

We're not going to be able to force a factory per player in teamgames without something artificial.

[luckywaldo7]

Maybe try looking at the problem from a different angle. Maybe the factory in general is an "underpowered" unit, especially compared to other mods/games. There are really only 2 things a factory is needed for: buildpower and tech.

Now the buildpower isn't really that important because the factory is assist-able. Now this is true in BA also, but in BA at a certain extent it become better to make a new factory because it take longer for the units to exit the factory then it takes for them to be built. In CA the units leave instantly. So assisting is FAR better then more factories.

Tech isn't nearly as important in CA either, because while in most other mods there is a tech tree tied directly to factories, CA is flat balanced. The only "tech" is the the range of units that is available to build in each factory.

While these are gameplay elements that I think are fine, they add up to make it completely not worthwhile to build a factory as opposed to assisting a teammate. I propose 2 different ways to buff the factory into a more viable option.

1) Increase factory bp. Factory can have bp doubled to 12 and still be less effective then assisting. This will nerf nano start a bit, because nanos will be even more excessive bp, I don't know if you all would consider that a good or a bad thing. It would also make game starts faster because you have enough bp in your factory to not need assisting for a minute or two.

2) Decrease factory cost. (In the end it would still be effectively buffing the bp/cost) This would mean that building a factory would leave you behind less in boost/starting resources.

[licho]

Im considering significantly decreasing factory cost.. like to 250. This would allow us to remove boost completely .. factory build time 20 seconds is acceptable i think.

[CarRepairer]

Replying to luckywaldo7:

Maybe try looking at the problem from a different angle. Maybe the factory ... ...

This is a good assessment. I agree with everything said here except "(2)decrease cost." Less cost would incentivise the building of a start factory but would also promote multiple factories as there's less risk. I suggest instead more HP as a buff, so factories feel more like a solid "rock" or foundation of your headquarters. I always felt that buildings should feel like they have more HP than walking robots, barring the mega t3 kind.

In fact, factories should cost even more once the factory-plop is implemented. Your first factory is instantaneous and costs "nothing" while subsequent factories are more of a strategic choice instead of something to be spammed.

Replying to licho:

Im considering significantly decreasing factory cost.. like to 250. This would allow us to remove boost completely .. factory build time 20 seconds is acceptable i think.

That's too bad, i was hoping for the opposite.

[Google Frog]

As long as the factory costs resources there will be an advantage in building less factories than players.

Also I don't want to increase BP as that removes the need to make cons to assist faster early on.

[luckywaldo7]

Replying to Google Frog:

Also I don't want to increase BP as that removes the need to make cons to assist faster early on.

Really? I was always somewhat frustrated that factories are half useless at building stuff unless assisted. Although I can see that would really encourage commpush in 1v1.

And there is not always an advantage in fewer factories. Trying to deploy units all over the map from a single factory means that you will have slower reactions to your opponent and longer supply lines of reinforcement troops (for this reason I sometimes build a factory on the front lines despite the greater risk) (also the notable exception to this being air).

Of course, atm this just doesn't seem to be enough of an advantage for the cost/stats of the factory. I think if we could buff it a bit it would be properly viable. Another possibility is buffing its energy output, say to maybe 10, so its not as good as solar but becomes a better investment then before. I'm not opposed to more hp, but I don't think it would help much early game, as factories are not usually in much danger of being killed unless everything else around it is already dead. It could also be some combination of small buffs.

Honestly, I'm not super crazy about my own ideas because I know the gameplay will be affected noticeably. But I don't like the idea of being forced to have a factory. We have had loads of fun playing silly games like darkside 8v8, with ludicrously awesome strategies like anni rush that you will never find in any other game anywhere. And I don't like the idea of some over-complicated artificially-induced rules that people will need time to explain.

Of course, there is always modoptions for when we want lulz gameplay.

[CarRepairer]

Default CA should have factory plop start because 99% of games should involve making a factory. If you want your darkside lulzy game, then have mod option to turn off factory plop. Google stated very well that we want to promote fun, and fun is in making factories and armies, not assisting allies with boost to rush a brawler for i-win button. The bottom line should be to promote fun, with mod option for the very rare cases as mentioned.

[Google Frog]

And there is not always an advantage in fewer factories. Trying to deploy units all over the map from a single factory means that you will have slower reactions to your opponent and longer supply lines of reinforcement troops (for this reason I sometimes build a factory on the front lines despite the greater risk) (also the notable exception to this being air).

I'd say the max factories on tabalu is about 3. Any more and they're too close.

I don't like the idea of buffing factory economy (bp, energy) as it would act as forced economy. Forced economy reduces your choice after you've got a factory because it's the same as making a factory + solars/cons every game. You might want to rush.

With Factory plop you could still assist a pene, it will just be a bit harder.

[Licho]

Winner: Yes (42%)

[Google Frog]

Oh well, I suppose we can leave the issue to until hordes of pro clans demand a boostrush nerf.

[CarRepairer]

Shall I make a facplop gadget? I could adapt it from startboost but it would be simpler.

[Saktoth]

I would change my vote to 500/500 and break the tie, but i think there are better options. Thats why i hate this voting system: here we are discussing what the best option is while we are voting for something else. Maybe we can go for this for now and discuss a better solution: but that just confuses players!

Wouldnt facplop be just facinabox? Only problem with facinabox, IMO, is that you cant pick facing and it moves too fast (also ugly and weird, but...). What is facplop? If it has ugly before-game deployment-mode style crap, forget it, we want to speed up, not slow down, the game.

I like the way you think lucky. Though, while i love 'organic' solutions, its a lot harder to organically ensure everyone starts factory than it is to just force it, if thats the way we want everyone to play anyway.

However, the problems you identify arent the causes of coop strats, which are our problem. Com has no opening time, exit times arent a problem at the coop build scale. The 'tech investment' of a t2 fac is obviously not an issue with cooping.

Limiting assist to a factory is kinda a variant on 'unassistable factories', somewhere inbetween. Personally, i think its a good thing: I think factories should have a 'reset time' before placing a new nanoframe, or something that is universal (we removed the current exit times because they vary by the acceleration of the unit- ravager exits slowly, stumpy much faster), and/or there should be some other kind of physical limit to how much you can assist. Again, id like something organic, that doesnt disturb the 'BT makes everything' dynamic, but which isnt frustrating like constructors bumping into eachother around your factory. Hard...

I think we do need to adjust the start of the game. I find im often starting nanotower to burn through my early resources, and almost always expand with com.

I want a lot of viable starts: Com assists, com expands, con assists, pure military com assisted rushes etc. I find im often starting nanotower to burn my starting metal and expanding with com, which is a bit blah since id rather mobile nanopower so you can chose more what to do with it once you burn off your metal.

I suggest instead more HP as a buff, so factories feel more like a solid "rock" or foundation of your headquarters.

Moronic, they have heaps of HP, way more than BA, and the 'feel' of them wont change jack about what is effective use. You almost never get people sniping factories anymore- its not worth it.

Of course, atm this just doesn't seem to be enough of an advantage for the cost/stats of the factory. I think if we could buff it a bit it would be properly viable. Another possibility is buffing its energy output, say to maybe 10, so its not as good as solar but becomes a better investment then before.

I actually kinda! The extra E and M on the com is a pain because it allows him to do all sorts of cheesy rushes with static D that takes E to fire, and he doesnt have any vulnerable or exposed winds/solars you can snipe to stop it. Yet you really need it to make the start smoother, since 1-1-1 means that the 'early' units are no longer cheap in e. If you have to build your factory to get that E, it could help with a lot of things. So, taking e from the com and putting it in the factory, maybe 5 e and down to 3 e from com (for +3 +3).

Anyway, regardless of coop fac, i think the start of the game could do with a few adjustments.

[CarRepairer]

Nice wall of text. JUST TRY THE FACPLOP mr. novelist. You could have played three games instead of typing all that.

[Saktoth]

I wrote 4 lines on facplop...

[Google Frog]

I think the current factory construction method in 1v1 is fine, it works well. I would like to find a solution to the teamgame problem that does not affect 1v1.

Everything here is based on the assumption that people do not want their only contribution for the first 5(at least) minutes to be assisting an ally's comm, that they find it boring.

The problem is around the OPness of teamgame co-op when played with too many people per map, too many is often a lot less than people would think.

Economic incentives:
Factory/Comm/Global resource production does not affect the first 1000 resources spent. I don't see a solution in fiddling those numbers. If energy is harder to get there will be an even greater reason for someone to start fusion and share to the whole team.

500 boost for factory and 500 boost for other things may well be the best solution. It covers just about all attempts to not start factory, the only around it would be to plop factory then reclaim, reclaim doesn't get energy back. In a large game something like krow rush may well be viable with Fusion + factory reclaim but the inefficiencies should make it not OP. A limited pene style assist would still be possible with the remaining 500 boost but at least the assisting player has a factory of their own.

[SirMaverick]

What is facplop? If it has ugly before-game deployment-mode style crap, forget it, we want to speed up, not slow down, the game.

Try it out. Basically it's 1k resources start, no boost, first factory is instantly built.

[CarRepairer]

Facplop: The first factory you build with your comm is free. I could even add more stuff to that. Like your first solar (or two) is free. We could remove the inherent E-gen from commander.

[Saktoth]

Tried facplop.

Instant is bad, you need time to queue- since factory is totally free, you always make factory first.

Though i like the idea of removing coms inherent e-gen...

[MidKnight]

500 m, 500 boost is way too complicated, imo all future solutions to balance problems should follow KISS so as to make CA more friendly to everyone.

[CarRepairer]

Replying to Saktoth:

Tried facplop. Instant is bad, you need time to queue- since factory is totally free, you always make factory first.

That's the point. It is fully and admittedly setting an articial construct to promote the building of factories. As state earlier, "factories = fun" and people are purposely building factories despite that fact that they are aware that a different start is more viable at times.

It's no different than facinabox except that facinabox allows you to plop a fac at some distance from your comm (and it's a bit creepy too).

[Google Frog]

As state earlier, "factories = fun" and people are purposely building factories despite that fact that they are aware that a different start is more viable at times.

Because none of the current teamgames display a high level of skill and team co-operation.

I like the idea of facplop + 1000 boost + reduced Comm income. The extra boost would probably be used for energy structures but it still allows some cheese. The reduced income would make raiding a bit more effective.

[CarRepairer]

Why have boost when there's facplop? The point is to remove boost so no one boostrushes, ever. I can add a solarplop too (with indicators above comm's head the remaining buildings you can plop).

[SirMaverick]

The point is to remove boost so no one boostrushes, ever.

You don't have to remove boost completely to prevent boostrushes. Either less or limit to certain things would work for example.

Just facplop and no boost will make start very slow again.

[CarRepairer]

Replying to SirMaverick:

Just facplop and no boost will make start very slow again.

It would be slower than full boost, but faster than before boost. I could add a solarplop or two. Maybe mexplop. I just want to prevent all cheese, entirely.

[Google Frog]

Why have boost when there's facplop? The point is to remove boost so no one boostrushes, ever. I can add a solarplop too (with indicators above comm's head the remaining buildings you can plop).

I don't want the start to be incredibly restrictive. A lot of diversity in the start is a good thing. The game would be boring if every start was forced to be a defensive economy start.

[CarRepairer]

I thought that was the whole point of your first post. It's purposely restrictive to force an economic factory start in order to make the game more interesting. Adding boost back in would just allow boost rushing again.

Oh well, mod option is there if anyone wants it.

[Google Frog]

I want to force a factory start to make the game interesting for every player involved, this is not necessarily making the game more interesting from an outside observer's perspective.

The problem is that boostrush where 1 or more players do not get their own factory is not fun for those players. Factory Co-op in general is powerful as it saves the team 500 boost for every factory not built, it has the disadvantage of not being fun for all involved. I'm otherwise not against boostrush or any other wacky starts.

The difficulty(therefore discussion) is in finding a solution that forces all players on the team to have fun (ie. make a factory) but still lets people/teams start the game in many different ways (raid, expand, defend, econ etc...) and some cheese.

I don't like the limit boost to factory/econ idea as it forces everyone to do an econ start. Also it won't work in theory because once the team has a certain number of factories it's best to spend their remaining boost on econ for the super overdrive.

A factory start is not necessarily economic. It could be a heavy expansion or raiding start.

[Saktoth]

You totally miss my point car. With facplop, should build factory before mexes, before walking, before winds. And when you do, you have no time to queue it or wait for it because its instant.

Facplop would be fine if it wasnt instant (maybe 3x speed) and wasnt much slower than boost (people will keep using boost if it starts faster). Id say 2 solars and 3 mexes would be good, but what if you want to start wind instead? Or tidals? Or fusion, unless we want to remove that strat. Or do a fac assisted rush with no e structures. Maybe give the player 140m in any energy structure? But wait, thats back to having limited boost...

[SirMaverick]

The difficulty(therefore discussion) is in finding a solution that forces all players on the team to have fun (ie. make a factory) but still lets people/teams start the game in many different ways (raid, expand, defend, econ etc...) and some cheese.

Why not restrict to boost to own team only? All that will be possible and we prevent boost usage to support "foreign" things.

[Google Frog]

The difficulty(therefore discussion) is in finding a solution that forces all players on the team to have fun (ie. make a factory) but still lets people/teams start the game in many different ways (raid, expand, defend, econ etc...) and some cheese.

Why not restrict to boost to own team only? All that will be possible and we prevent boost usage to support "foreign" things.

I don't really like that solution as it's inconsistent with the rest of the game, normally the actual player team of a unit does not matter. Also what if someone shares factory to assist?

You totally miss my point car. With facplop, should build factory before mexes, before walking, before winds. And when you do, you have no time to queue it or wait for it because its instant.

If a player has no income a factory is pretty useless unless boosted.

[CarRepairer]

Replying to Saktoth:

You totally miss my point car. With facplop, should build factory before mexes, before walking,

That's a problem, I agree. Because you might start in a bad spot and your enemy in a better spot for factory.

before winds.

I don't see why it matters if it's before winds.

And when you do, you have no time to queue it or wait for it because its instant.

Why do you care so much about the time to queue it? Queue it after you plop it. The moment you hit one icon it starts building.

Facplop would be fine if it wasnt instant (maybe 3x speed) and wasnt much slower than boost (people will keep using boost if it starts faster).

The point is to speed up the start without the cheese of boostrushes/boostassists. It's not as fast as boost but still faster than nothing.

Id say 2 solars and 3 mexes would be good, but what if you want to start wind instead?

Then add some winds after you plopped your two solars, what's the big deal? I don't think mexplop is a good idea because some people start in places far from mexes in communism mode and the ability is wasted. Solars can be plopped anywhere, however (well, not in water - see below).

Or tidals?

Haven't considered that, I'll think of a solution.

Or fusion, unless we want to remove that strat.

I feel fusion boost is not necessary.

Or do a fac assisted rush with no e structures.

If you have facplop + 2x solarplop then you can instantly have your fac pumping out stuff after dropping the three buildings down.

And don't forget solarplop could possibly eliminate the need for comm's e-gen, at least beyond what every con has (I won't get into why I feel this whole cons generating resources is just a load of crap anyway).

[SirMaverick]

Why not restrict to boost to own team only? All that will be possible and we prevent boost usage to support "foreign" things.

I don't really like that solution as it's inconsistent with the rest of the game, normally the actual player team of a unit does not matter.

The first 1k (that's what we all talk about) is in general spend on own base (factory + start eco). The other cases are mostly cheese we try to prevent. This suggestions removes the start cheese with the least restriction possible.

Also what if someone shares factory to assist?

What if we have <insert "perfect" solution>? The problem still persists. Whatever the solution will be you can still use all free builds/boost and build something, then build nanos and reclaim the unneeded free stuff to have metal to support an ally factory. It will be slower than boosting directly but still faster than 2 or more players building separately.

If you try to prevent this you need a lot of arbitrary, inconsistent and choice reducing restrictions, like: no reclaim of free stuff, no ally support at all etc. (or only the first n mintes?).

Imho it comes down 3 choices:

• 1) 1k resource start (like BA) - will be slow
• 2) resources, boost, special stuff like facplop - or any mix of that (with minor restriction)
• 3) like 2) but with arbitrary, inconsistent restrictions

Do you see any others?

None of the first two will really force players to keep and use their factory, maybe to build it first, but they'll still have a "550m feature" ready to reclaim.

[Google Frog]

By force I mean not doing it is strategically unviable. For example noone is forced to use any of their boost but in terms of the game they are forced to, the only winning paths involve using your starting resources.

The first 1k (that's what we all talk about) is in general spend on own base (factory + start eco). The other cases are mostly cheese we try to prevent. This suggestions removes the start cheese with the least restriction possible.

I like the ability for players to pool together and start something like Crabe. The problem is that firstly the assisting players don't have anything to do and secondly that with the 500m saved the strat is OP. I like the option to do this as long as it's balanced.

What if we have <insert "perfect" solution>? The problem still persists. Whatever the solution will be you can still use all free builds/boost and build something, then build nanos and reclaim the unneeded free stuff to have metal to support an ally factory. It will be slower than boosting directly but still faster than 2 or more players building separately.

I think that the extra time required and the loss of E reclaiming will make this inviable.

3) like 2) but with arbitrary, inconsistent restrictions

Unfortunately yes but I think the first factory costing nothing is the least arbitrary.

[SirMaverick]

It will be slower than boosting directly but still faster than 2 or more players building separately.

I think that the extra time required and the loss of E reclaiming will make this inviable.

Then you will invest a little more in E at start. I think it's still viable.

3) like 2) but with arbitrary, inconsistent restrictions

Unfortunately yes but I think the first factory costing nothing is the least arbitrary.

In my option a general boost is not arbitrary, while a "first factory free" is.

[SirMaverick]

Replying to Google Frog:

I like the ability for players to pool together and start something like Crabe. The problem is that firstly the assisting players don't have anything to do and secondly that with the 500m saved the strat is OP. I like the option to do this as long as it's balanced.

I don't see how this is op. You save the m but you got less bp.

"first factory free" seems to be the only option to directly compensate the 500m saved. But the start will be slower.

[Saktoth]

Facplop is fine, other than the fact it mandates factory-first build ordesr (no longe starts). Just make it

• Slightly slower so that you have a little time to queue (otherwise its just reaction times on how fast you get your fac down).
• Find another way to speed up the rest of the start, without really resitricting build orders, because as long as its much slower than boost people wont want to use it.

[SirMaverick]

This vote is useless. Keep discussion and implement new methods, then we can make a new poll to decide what will be default.

[Google Frog]

Facplop is fine, other than the fact it mandates factory-first build ordesr (no longe starts). Just make it
Slightly slower so that you have a little time to queue (otherwise its just reaction times on how fast you get your fac down).
Find another way to speed up the rest of the start, without really resitricting build orders, because as long as its much slower than boost people wont want to use it.

Current factory builds really fast so I don't see much difference. Why not use boost and facplop at the same time to speed the rest of the build up? There's a boost + facplop option.

I don't see how this is op. You save the m but you got less bp.

You save 500m and lose 6 bp, the advantage comes from saving 500m right at the start of the game where you're usually excessing bp anyway.

[MidKnight]

Winner: No (42%)