Balance (#2) - t1 arty and ranges (#16) - Message List
I suppose it was decided afterall that i had a point regarding arty being too strong as skirmishers, but their old weaponvelocity means they cannot hit their max range on a whole variety of maps, from small and altored divide to tropical. How is this going to be addressed?
Obviously we cannot have it that arty can outrange HLT's on some maps, and fire ineffectively at their feet on others.
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Message #42
It was just a quick fix for the immediately following games. Our discussion in #ca on arty was made without having understood the implications of the weapon speed increase.
Obviously we cannot have it that arty can outrange HLT's on some maps, and fire ineffectively at their feet on others.
Making it outrange HLTs on some maps, and others not, is acceptable imho: it means players must take into account gravity when planning attacks.
Making arty aim short ineffectively is less acceptable. We could decrease the TDF range of arty on high gravity maps so it coincides with the effective range of the weapon. It's possible with LuaRules? or LuaCob?.
quantum07/05/07 02:51:04-
Message #43
I really dont think most maps are designed with high gravity in order to limit the use of artillery. In fact, i would say that the intention of most mappers in putting low gravity on their maps is specifically to make arty useless- as the high trajectory arty of BA is. If maps are made with gravity in mind of how it effects gameplay (and i would say that most mappers either use arbitrary, default or purely cosmetic numbers), high gravity maps tend to favour artillery, as the shots spend less time in the air.
I think it is reasonable to say that mappers can have some controls over the gameplay on their map (As they do for wind, heights, water, tidal etc), however, i believe their intention is in fact the exact reverse of what we are doing in this mod. Artillery will be more effective on comet Catcher, less on Altored.
saktoth07/05/07 10:07:53-
Message #44
That's true. Lets reduce the range so it is equivalent to the current max effective range on altored, ok?
quantum07/05/07 12:16:47-
Message #45
the question is:
Do we want that arty outranges a HLT?
jk07/05/07 12:43:50-
Message #46
I think that an HLT is an obstacle you need to assault, at least in the first phases of T1. Otherwise, after a lost skirmish, it would be too hard to stop the ennemy advance. As Saktoth put it months ago, an HLT is where you draw the line.
It shouldn't be an impassable obstacle, of course, but you should be ready to take a minimum amount of losses if you decide you want to get through, as opposed to kill it safely from a distance.
On the other hand, the need for LoS mitigates the effectiveness of artillery vs HLTs. Still, I think that vehicle arty should have HLT range - 1.
What do you think?
quantum07/05/07 13:26:21-
Message #47
This tips the balance in the favor of porcing on many maps. Spammed llt will destroy anything not several times its metal cost in direct combat (Not to mention a dgunning commander on front line). If someone llt spams, then you attack with samson/rocko. They can counter this with an HLT. Suddenly you can't attack their llts anymore. This forces you to use specialized units (arty) and opens the door a lot more interesting strategies from both sides. HLT still draws the line, but with some work, you can counter it.
det07/05/07 20:28:54-
Message #48
The way det phrases it, samson vs llt, arty vs hlt, makes a lot of sense to me. We always have the guardian if you really want line-drawing. But a HLT should still be dificult to take down, not just 'okay now i maek arty keke'.
If someone attacks you with arty, you should easily be able to send out a few flash tanks, stumpies or janus's to eliminate them, so that its a threat you must respond to with a sortie. But you must be able to do this! If the arty can contribute to the battle as support units, and have AoE and impulse, there is little hope of being able to attack them with flash tanks.
Then there are jammers of course, which help... and t1 shields maybe perhaps.
saktoth07/06/07 02:17:14-
Message #49
All valid points. Ok, if nobody objects, let's go for for arty range > HLT range. We will need to increase the shot speed again, then, until it barely reaches the range ring on Altored. Since we are already using a firing arc and slow turn speed, we can use the targetMoveError tag and/or dynamic damage to make it an ineffective skirmisher without decreasing its effectiveness as an artillery unit.
T1 shields/deflectors are an interesting option. Comm upgrade? We could also make the cloak shield cheaper, and perhaps make it an upgrade. This deserves another topic.
quantum07/06/07 03:24:06-
Message #50
If its no longer meant to be an effective skirmisher (Which i dont think it should be- the samson is the skirmisher/arty, the shell/wolv is dedicated arty, but its better arty than the samson) then we might as well make it high trajectory again, tbh. Much easier than mucking around with moverrors and dynamic damage.
saktoth07/06/07 04:07:03-
Message #52
Ok, I put the issue badly. T1 vehicle arty can't skirmish: it can't run away from incoming threats. The problem is that with increased weapon speed it might be too effective at short range. Arty should be devastating against massed units, arty does not mean ineffectiveness against mobile units.
quantum07/06/07 11:35:22-
Message #54
No, i do disagree that t1 arty should be devestating against massed units. If it can outrange everything, and is devestating against massed units, how do you stop one? The counter to artillery should be a rush by raiders, skirmishers (janus im thinking here) or assault. If it counters raiders, skirms and assault as 'anti-spam', then it becomes too effective against this tactic.
saktoth07/07/07 06:13:50-
Message #56
Let me explain better. If you charge artillery with a few Flashes, if the arty can turn their turrets to fire on the Flashes, the shells will fly over the head of the speeding Flashes, and the arty gets pwnt. If you start spamming flashes and attack with 50 of them, the shells will Fly over the first flashes and hit the ones behind. In addition, the damage will be multiplied by units within AoE. The arty will still get pwnt but with great cost.
Artillery makes it ineffective to concentrate a huge amount of units in one point, then charge with them.
quantum07/07/07 13:58:57-
Message #57
I dont see how you propose to do this, the arty will lead the flashes and hit their group dead on, even with just a few. Even with target move error and inaccuracy, the shots will hit around the flash, and even a small group of flash will still take hits by AoE if nothing else. Accuracy is terribly unreliable, as ballistic shots tend to still be travelling at a low enough angle that they hit the first thing they collide with in a straight line near the target. Even if artillery was made so wildly inaccurate that it could not hit units, it wouldnt be able to hit buildings then, either.
As for 50 flashes, it is never effective to attack with this many, especially in CA, and even on cometcatcher in BA most people will go stumpies well before they get this many flash. This is merely due to the dynamic of how flash work, their short range, inability to shoot over eachother and wreckage, etc (disadvantages the stumpy doesnt have). There is no reason to have artillery as a way to discourage mass raider flushes, they are already utterly useless in CA.
Additionally, i dont exactly see the need to discourage people from massing their forces and making surgical strikes with them. This is good strategy, if you ask me. If the idea is to encourage them to make constant small attacks, rather than huge flushes, then perhaps other techniques should be used to make this viable before we make large flushes non-viable.
Finally, i think there is a problem with artillery being both a way to attack the enemy with impunity, and a way to defend yourself from large raids. I am not against having a unit or defense that is 'anti-spam', with an AoE attack. I just think it shouldnt be the same as the arty. It leaves the enemy with the only response to massed artillery being his own artillery, as he cannot send forces against you. I mean artillery in general here, not just wolverines.
saktoth07/07/07 18:18:40
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